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	<title>Comments on: How I&#8217;ve Learned Japanese Part 1: &#8220;Desu&#8221; &amp; &#8220;Masu&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/</link>
	<description>A Guy with a Blog about Japan</description>
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		<title>By: Selah</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-130368</link>
		<dc:creator>Selah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 06:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-130368</guid>
		<description>This comment is several years after the original post, I know, but I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading it and the comments. I have to say, I agree with Guyjin about learning ~masu forms first, and here is why. 

1. Sure, you can start by learning the dictionary forms for conjugation, and the Japanese people will think you are cute for trying. But you still look like you&#039;re stumbling around the language. Why choose that on purpose? 

2. If you start with the ~masu forms, you automatically look like you&#039;ve actually studied the language at least a bit, and even the stumbling looks more polished. Plus, as you work on learning other forms it gives you a default to fall back on. That way your default level is tuned to &quot;polite&quot; and sure, it&#039;s too formal for some situations, but having been here a few months (with years to go) I&#039;m already seeing the benefits of knowing ~masu form over the more informal ones.
 
3. Americans in particular are used to a much less formal and polite method of speaking. By default, our language is very wordy, very familiar, and that&#039;s fine. But the Japanese people have a different mentality to start with. If you come at it from an American perspective then sure, starting informal and working up is fine, and it feels weird to be all polite. But from a Japanese perspective, you&#039;re showing them respect, and they&#039;ll respect that and show you the same in return. It establishes a good framework from the start. If you start out all &quot;yo, dog&quot; to a Japanese person, it looks like you haven&#039;t bothered to care about their society and culture.

Just my two cents. Again, years late, but I hope this blog is updated again since I really enjoy reading the posts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This comment is several years after the original post, I know, but I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading it and the comments. I have to say, I agree with Guyjin about learning ~masu forms first, and here is why. </p>
<p>1. Sure, you can start by learning the dictionary forms for conjugation, and the Japanese people will think you are cute for trying. But you still look like you&#8217;re stumbling around the language. Why choose that on purpose? </p>
<p>2. If you start with the ~masu forms, you automatically look like you&#8217;ve actually studied the language at least a bit, and even the stumbling looks more polished. Plus, as you work on learning other forms it gives you a default to fall back on. That way your default level is tuned to &#8220;polite&#8221; and sure, it&#8217;s too formal for some situations, but having been here a few months (with years to go) I&#8217;m already seeing the benefits of knowing ~masu form over the more informal ones.</p>
<p>3. Americans in particular are used to a much less formal and polite method of speaking. By default, our language is very wordy, very familiar, and that&#8217;s fine. But the Japanese people have a different mentality to start with. If you come at it from an American perspective then sure, starting informal and working up is fine, and it feels weird to be all polite. But from a Japanese perspective, you&#8217;re showing them respect, and they&#8217;ll respect that and show you the same in return. It establishes a good framework from the start. If you start out all &#8220;yo, dog&#8221; to a Japanese person, it looks like you haven&#8217;t bothered to care about their society and culture.</p>
<p>Just my two cents. Again, years late, but I hope this blog is updated again since I really enjoy reading the posts!</p>
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		<title>By: Guyjin &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Guyjin Blog Celebrates First Birthday!</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-11067</link>
		<dc:creator>Guyjin &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Guyjin Blog Celebrates First Birthday!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-11067</guid>
		<description>[...] and months&#8230;. The next most popular post was another Japanese language related post &#8211; &#8220;How I&#8217;ve Learned Japanese Part 1 &#8211; Desu &amp; Masu&#8221;, which has now had almost 700 hits. We also have 89 subscribers to our RSS [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and months&#8230;. The next most popular post was another Japanese language related post &#8211; &#8220;How I&#8217;ve Learned Japanese Part 1 &#8211; Desu &amp; Masu&#8221;, which has now had almost 700 hits. We also have 89 subscribers to our RSS [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Guyjin &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How I&#8217;ve Learned Japanese Part 2: Hiragana &#38; Katakana</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>Guyjin &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How I&#8217;ve Learned Japanese Part 2: Hiragana &#38; Katakana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-490</guid>
		<description>[...] week I wrote about using &#8220;Desu&#8221; &amp; &#8220;Masu&#8221; when you start out learning Japanese, and this created a lot of discussion about what are the best [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] week I wrote about using &#8220;Desu&#8221; &amp; &#8220;Masu&#8221; when you start out learning Japanese, and this created a lot of discussion about what are the best [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-419</guid>
		<description>Guyjin, I really enjoyed this article. I&#039;m still learning the language myself, and although using desu and masu all the time in actual conversation with everyone you know would be asinine because you could start to sound way to formal, I think it&#039;s a good starting place for anyone learning the language. Once you have a good command over using desu and masu you can easily learn different conjugations for words. I see using desu and masu all the time as a lever that always goes back to the middle. Like... desu and masu is the form okay to use with anyone, but if you want to talk less formally, you can bend the lever to one side and lower the formalness, but once you&#039;re done, you jump right back into desu/masu to talk to those you aren&#039;t familiar with. As for me, in my Japanese class here at college, when we started learning verbs, they&#039;re listed in the book in dictionary form, and we had to conjugate to masu form and weren&#039;t allowed to use short form at all. So, if anything, I think that&#039;s a good starting place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guyjin, I really enjoyed this article. I&#8217;m still learning the language myself, and although using desu and masu all the time in actual conversation with everyone you know would be asinine because you could start to sound way to formal, I think it&#8217;s a good starting place for anyone learning the language. Once you have a good command over using desu and masu you can easily learn different conjugations for words. I see using desu and masu all the time as a lever that always goes back to the middle. Like&#8230; desu and masu is the form okay to use with anyone, but if you want to talk less formally, you can bend the lever to one side and lower the formalness, but once you&#8217;re done, you jump right back into desu/masu to talk to those you aren&#8217;t familiar with. As for me, in my Japanese class here at college, when we started learning verbs, they&#8217;re listed in the book in dictionary form, and we had to conjugate to masu form and weren&#8217;t allowed to use short form at all. So, if anything, I think that&#8217;s a good starting place.</p>
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		<title>By: Seahorse-ily</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator>Seahorse-ily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-415</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d have to agree with Durf and James on this one.  If I was learning from scratch again, I&#039;d start with dictionary form.  It makes it much easier to learn how to conjugate verbs this way, since you &quot;lose&quot; information when you go to masu form.  Dictionary form is the basic building block you can get to all other forms with.

For me, I use dictionary form with friends and co-workers I&#039;m closer with, and masu and desu form for those I don&#039;t know so well.  The guys in my team at work are generally pretty laid-back, and use casual form between themselves all the time.  Likewise, you&#039;ll hear guys use boku and (less frequently) ore rather than watashi.  

After a few months living here and having only studied polite forms at that point, some Japanese friends of mine asked me why I was always so overly formal using desu and masu all the time.  Using casual forms are in a way an expression of how you view your relationship with them, so you can seem distant if you refrain from using them.

All that said, the expectations for foreigners&#039; Japanese is generally not too high.  As long as you can get your point across, you&#039;re doing very well indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have to agree with Durf and James on this one.  If I was learning from scratch again, I&#8217;d start with dictionary form.  It makes it much easier to learn how to conjugate verbs this way, since you &#8220;lose&#8221; information when you go to masu form.  Dictionary form is the basic building block you can get to all other forms with.</p>
<p>For me, I use dictionary form with friends and co-workers I&#8217;m closer with, and masu and desu form for those I don&#8217;t know so well.  The guys in my team at work are generally pretty laid-back, and use casual form between themselves all the time.  Likewise, you&#8217;ll hear guys use boku and (less frequently) ore rather than watashi.  </p>
<p>After a few months living here and having only studied polite forms at that point, some Japanese friends of mine asked me why I was always so overly formal using desu and masu all the time.  Using casual forms are in a way an expression of how you view your relationship with them, so you can seem distant if you refrain from using them.</p>
<p>All that said, the expectations for foreigners&#8217; Japanese is generally not too high.  As long as you can get your point across, you&#8217;re doing very well indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: guyjin</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-410</link>
		<dc:creator>guyjin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-410</guid>
		<description>Certainly it is important for a new learner to learn the dictionary or basic forms of words. However, most of the people that I am talking about here are not children, and they risk sounding childish if they do not have a command of desu and masu forms. Most people that you meet will certainly be forgiving of a foreigner speaking dictionary forms, but if you can get into the habit of converting these words into the desu and masu form from an early stage of your learning this will make your Japanese level increase much faster - and be recognized as such by Japanese people that you interact with. That is my experience anyway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly it is important for a new learner to learn the dictionary or basic forms of words. However, most of the people that I am talking about here are not children, and they risk sounding childish if they do not have a command of desu and masu forms. Most people that you meet will certainly be forgiving of a foreigner speaking dictionary forms, but if you can get into the habit of converting these words into the desu and masu form from an early stage of your learning this will make your Japanese level increase much faster &#8211; and be recognized as such by Japanese people that you interact with. That is my experience anyway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Durf</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Durf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-409</guid>
		<description>I tend to think that it&#039;s better for learners new to the language to start with the dictionary forms of the verbs, since those are what you need to get down in order to build on them and create your した and させる and させられたくなかった forms later on—and yes, even the ます forms that are the &quot;basic level of politeness&quot; you (rightly) value. 

When Japanese toddlers learn their native tongue, those are the forms they start with. I know my daughter uses them heavily at age two and a half. Linguistically, they&#039;re more helpful to the learner as a foundation for future learning, in my opinion. 

The rudeness of the dictionary forms isn&#039;t something to be concerned about at the stage where the speaker can&#039;t string together meaningful, grammatical sentences of any length anyway. Japanese listeners aren&#039;t going to be offended by the beginner&#039;s dictionary-form mumblings any more than they&#039;re offended by my daughter for her ungrammatical ways. 

That said, my first teachers and textbooks started me off on ですます調 because that&#039;s the way of the world in formal JFL education. I was lucky to be in Japan, though, so I had plenty of extracurricular learning time to pick up the language in its other forms at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to think that it&#8217;s better for learners new to the language to start with the dictionary forms of the verbs, since those are what you need to get down in order to build on them and create your した and させる and させられたくなかった forms later on—and yes, even the ます forms that are the &#8220;basic level of politeness&#8221; you (rightly) value. </p>
<p>When Japanese toddlers learn their native tongue, those are the forms they start with. I know my daughter uses them heavily at age two and a half. Linguistically, they&#8217;re more helpful to the learner as a foundation for future learning, in my opinion. </p>
<p>The rudeness of the dictionary forms isn&#8217;t something to be concerned about at the stage where the speaker can&#8217;t string together meaningful, grammatical sentences of any length anyway. Japanese listeners aren&#8217;t going to be offended by the beginner&#8217;s dictionary-form mumblings any more than they&#8217;re offended by my daughter for her ungrammatical ways. </p>
<p>That said, my first teachers and textbooks started me off on ですます調 because that&#8217;s the way of the world in formal JFL education. I was lucky to be in Japan, though, so I had plenty of extracurricular learning time to pick up the language in its other forms at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: guyjin</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-407</link>
		<dc:creator>guyjin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-407</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment James. Though I have to disagree with you here. I understand what you are saying about the basic form, but desu and masu are not as formal as you seem to make out. When you are with close friends or people that you see on a daily basis, sure, the basic form is sufficient in most cases. But I believe that it is very important to start off being polite, and then relax into the basic form, rather than the other way around.

I have been in numerous situations where the use of the slightly more polite desu and masu have earned respect, as people recognize that I have a strong command of the language. This can also be invaluable in getting barriers to break down. Especially in business or in dealings with people in banks, shops, and a variety of other places that you will need to use Japanese on a daily basis. Using the basic form in these kind of situations can be considered quite rude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment James. Though I have to disagree with you here. I understand what you are saying about the basic form, but desu and masu are not as formal as you seem to make out. When you are with close friends or people that you see on a daily basis, sure, the basic form is sufficient in most cases. But I believe that it is very important to start off being polite, and then relax into the basic form, rather than the other way around.</p>
<p>I have been in numerous situations where the use of the slightly more polite desu and masu have earned respect, as people recognize that I have a strong command of the language. This can also be invaluable in getting barriers to break down. Especially in business or in dealings with people in banks, shops, and a variety of other places that you will need to use Japanese on a daily basis. Using the basic form in these kind of situations can be considered quite rude.</p>
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		<title>By: locohama</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator>locohama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-405</guid>
		<description>&quot;How I&#039;ve learned Japanese&quot; sounds like...actually i&#039;m not sure what it means.It makes me think of the various methods you&#039;ve utilized to accomplish the level you are at now, which I would presume to be fluent. Which is not much different from &quot;How I learned Japanese&quot;. How about &quot;How I became proficient in Japanese&quot; or &quot;How I learn Japanese&quot; if you want to siggest that you are still learning it. Just a thought.
keep up the series!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How I&#8217;ve learned Japanese&#8221; sounds like&#8230;actually i&#8217;m not sure what it means.It makes me think of the various methods you&#8217;ve utilized to accomplish the level you are at now, which I would presume to be fluent. Which is not much different from &#8220;How I learned Japanese&#8221;. How about &#8220;How I became proficient in Japanese&#8221; or &#8220;How I learn Japanese&#8221; if you want to siggest that you are still learning it. Just a thought.<br />
keep up the series!</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://guyjin.me/2009/10/14/how-ive-learned-japanese-part-1-desu-masu/comment-page-1/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://guyjin.me/?p=632#comment-404</guid>
		<description>So, you can speak the simplified form too though right? Because it&#039;s also quite rude to speak ~desu and ~masu to a friend or someone you work with as it&#039;ll sound rather cold. In my experience, speaking normal japanese straight off the bat will get most japanese people to open up a lot faster; they wont feel confined by the traditional politeness levels. 

There is no real reason for you to use desu and masu forms, and your japanese teacher simply told you there was because of the long held belief by japanese teachers that foreigners ought to use polite form all the time. I only felt like I was even getting to basic level of fluency once I discovered the basic form and all the wonderful things you could do with it!

From a language acquisition view I think it is better to learn the basic form and then move on to changing the verb endings to all the various forms than to learn one specific verb ending and have to backtrack to the simplified form. 

Of course, there are situations even in a gaijin life where keigo is appropriate, but 95% of the time standard language will sound a lot more natural.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you can speak the simplified form too though right? Because it&#8217;s also quite rude to speak ~desu and ~masu to a friend or someone you work with as it&#8217;ll sound rather cold. In my experience, speaking normal japanese straight off the bat will get most japanese people to open up a lot faster; they wont feel confined by the traditional politeness levels. </p>
<p>There is no real reason for you to use desu and masu forms, and your japanese teacher simply told you there was because of the long held belief by japanese teachers that foreigners ought to use polite form all the time. I only felt like I was even getting to basic level of fluency once I discovered the basic form and all the wonderful things you could do with it!</p>
<p>From a language acquisition view I think it is better to learn the basic form and then move on to changing the verb endings to all the various forms than to learn one specific verb ending and have to backtrack to the simplified form. </p>
<p>Of course, there are situations even in a gaijin life where keigo is appropriate, but 95% of the time standard language will sound a lot more natural.</p>
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